Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales Y Pwyllgor Menter a Busnes The Enterprise and Business Committee
Dydd Mercher, 30 Mai 2012 Wednesday, 30 May 2012
Cynnwys Contents Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions Ymchwiliad i Brentisiaethau yng Nghymru—Sesiwn Dystiolaeth Inquiry into Apprenticeships in Wales—Evidence Session Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting
Yn y golofn chwith, cofnodwyd y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi. Yn y golofn dde, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. In the left-hand column, the proceedings are recorded in the language in which they were spoken. The right-hand column contains a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation.
Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance
Byron Davies		Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives
Keith Davies		Llafur Labour
Yr Arglwydd/Lord Elis-Thomas		Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Julie James		Llafur Labour
Alun Ffred Jones		Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales
Eluned Parrott		Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats
Nick Ramsay		Ceidwadwyr Cymreig (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Welsh Conservatives (Committee Chair)
David Rees		Llafur Labour
Kenneth Skates		Llafur Labour
Joyce Watson		Llafur Labour
Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance
Jeff Cuthbert		Aelod Cynulliad, Llafur (Y Dirprwy Weinidog Sgiliau) Assembly Member, Labour (Deputy Minister for Skills)
Owen Evans		Cyfarwyddwr, Sgiliau, Addysg Uwch a Dysgu Gydol Oes, Llywodraeth Cymru Director, Skills, Higher Education and Lifelong Learning, Welsh Government
Sam Huckle		Pennaeth Polisi Prentisiaeth, Llywodraeth Cymru Head of Apprenticeship Policy, Welsh Government
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance
Siân Phipps		Clerc Clerk
Kayleigh Driscoll		Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk
Anne Thomas		Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9.30 a.m. The meeting began at 9.30 a.m.
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon Introduction, Apologies and Substitutions
[1] Nick Ramsay: I welcome witnesses, Members and any members of the public to today’s meeting. This meeting will be held bilingually and headphones can be used for simultaneous translation from Welsh to English on channel 1, or amplification on channel 0. The meeting is being broadcast and a transcript will be available. Could Members please turn off their mobile phones and anything else that might make a noise? There is no need to touch the microphones as they should operate automatically. In the event of a fire alarm, please follow the directions of the ushers. We have no apologies and no substitutions.
9.31 a.m.
Ymchwiliad i Brentisiaethau yng Nghymru—Sesiwn Dystiolaeth Inquiry into Apprenticeships in Wales—Evidence Session
[2] Nick Ramsay: We are continuing today with our inquiry into apprenticeships in Wales. I am pleased to welcome Jeff Cuthbert, the Deputy Minister for Skills. I also welcome Sam Huckle and Owen Evans. We have a fair number of questions for you, so, if you do not mind, we will go straight to those. Thank you for being with us today to take part in our inquiry. The first question is from Byron Davies.
[3] Byron Davies: Good morning. This first question is a general question about whether you think that the pre-apprenticeship and apprenticeship system in Wales is overly complex, with too many different vocational and apprenticeship-related programmes. That is partly the evidence that we have been hearing so far.
[4] The Deputy Minister for Skills (Jeff Cuthbert): It is a fair point. With the exception of the main apprenticeships, all the individual programmes—the foundation modern apprenticeships, the pathways and the Young Recruits programme—could lead you to say, ‘Gosh, that looks on the face of it a little bit complicated’, but they do certain special things. I do not think that it is unnecessarily complex, but there are grounds for looking at a rationalisation, certainly, and we intend to do that, to see whether we can simplify the system without having any impact on quality.
[5] Byron Davies: It appears that there is a reversal in the numbers of apprenticeships—that is, they are decreasing. From the evidence that we have been hearing—and in fact we have just watched a video put together by the outreach department, which I recommend to you—it would appear that opportunities are not advertised at an early stage in school. What would you say in response to that?
[6] Jeff Cuthbert: Thank you for that. Dealing with the first point about the reversal—I think that was the term you used—we need to be careful here. It is true that the absolute number of young people able to go into apprenticeships has dropped from about—I have the actual figures here—53,000 in 2006 to about 40,000 now. However, what I would stress is that the investment in apprenticeships has not decreased and, if anything, it has actually increased. What we have seen is that the apprenticeship framework has been strengthened, and perhaps most significantly, the completion rate has risen significantly, and is now 82%, whereas it used to be about 52%. The quality has improved significantly. We could always do with more money being invested in apprenticeships. That is fine, but we work within a limited budget. I am adamant that we will not sacrifice the framework requirement—that is, the criteria that have to be met—in order to make more apprenticeship places available. We will not do that. We will keep with strong apprenticeship frameworks.
[7] On the issue of promoting the notion, I think that it is fair to say that, within schools, there is perhaps not the understanding that there ought to be of the value of apprenticeships, although our impression is that that is improving; the careers’ service suggests that that is the case. I will be looking at doing some more work to make sure that schools are aware of the value of apprenticeships for young people and are therefore in a better position to promote them.
[8] Byron Davies: I would put it to you that that is a priority.
[9] Jeff Cuthbert: Which part?
[10] Byron Davies: To get into schools and to make awareness-raising more of a priority.
[11] Jeff Cuthbert: We are doing quite a lot. Putting aside the specific issue of schools—where I agree that more can be done—in fairness, we are concentrating a lot on promoting the value of apprenticeships. For example, we hold the Real Conversation events with schools across Wales—I have attended three of them, and I have more to attend. These are events where schools come together to meet with employers and apprenticeship providers such as National Training Federation Wales to talk about what young people need and what the apprenticeship system can offer them. We also had the very well developed National Apprenticeship Week, which was a UK-wide event—it was certainly here in Wales—and which had good publicity. There have also been more spectacular events such as the WorldSkills championships. So, we are doing a fair bit in terms of making the value of apprenticeships known to young people and employers, but there will always be more that can be done, and I do not dispute that.
[12] Byron Davies: I do not want to sound critical, but the message that seems to be coming through from the evidence is that young people get to a particular point at college, or wherever, and think ‘Oh crikey, there’s a thing called an apprenticeship’. There seems to be that gap.
[13] Jeff Cuthbert: If that is the evidence that has been given to you, I cannot dispute that, but the discussions that I have had with National Training Federation Wales, Colegau Cymru and individual providers seem not to support that. There is a better understanding than there was. It is oversubscribed—more young people want to do apprenticeships than the number of places that are available—but once they get on an apprenticeship, the completion rates indicate that they stick it out and benefit from it.
[14] Alun Ffred Jones: Mae gennyf dri chwestiwn. A fedrwch chi esbonio sut mae buddsoddiad wedi cynyddu ond y niferoedd wedi gostwng? Ble mae’r arian hwnnw’n mynd?			Alun Ffred Jones: I have three questions. Can you explain how the investment has increased while the numbers have decreased? Where is that money going?
[15] Jeff Cuthbert: I made the point that the investment has increased overall. Since a few years ago, we have the Pathways to Apprenticeships and the Young Recruits programme. Those form part of the overall spend on apprenticeships. However, the big issue is about the quality of the apprenticeship framework. We now have the specification of apprenticeship standards in Wales, which means a more rigorous approach than used to be the case. That includes not only the proviso of an NVQ at least at level 2, which is for a foundation level, ideally at level 3, Essential Skills Wales, as well as work on the responsibility of employees. So, the framework is quite strong. That, of course, has cost more money, but as I mentioned before, our priority is the quality of the provision rather than simply numbers, important though numbers are.
[16] Alun Ffred Jones: Mae’r ffigur o 53,000 yn 2006-07 wedi gostwng i 40,000 erbyn hyn. Fodd bynnag, os edrychwch ar y niferoedd sy’n cyflawni’r prentisiaethau, mae’r ffigur wedi aros yr un peth—nid oes cynnydd o gwbl, oherwydd mae 82% o 40,000 yn union yr un fath â beth bynnag oedd y ganran o’r 53,000. Felly, nid oes cynnydd mewn gwirionedd wedi bod yn nifer y rhai sy’n cyflawni’n llwyddiannus. A wyf yn iawn i ddweud na fu cynnydd ers 2006-07?			Alun Ffred Jones: The figure of 53,000 in 2006-07 has reduced to 40,000 by now. However, if you look at the numbers that have completed the apprenticeships, the figure has flat-lined—there has been no increase whatsoever, because 82% of 40,000 is exactly the same as whatever the percentage was for 53,000. So, there has been no increase in the number completing apprenticeships. Am I correct in saying that there has been no increase since 2006-07?
[17] Jeff Cuthbert: I cannot accept that logic, because if we were simply reducing the number of apprenticeships available, we would still expect the completion rate to be at the old number, but it is not—it is at 82%. So, a significantly greater percentage of apprentices are achieving the final qualification. So, I am afraid that I do not accept your basic premise.
[18] Alun Ffred Jones: Mae’r ganran yn uwch, ond mae’r ffigur yn union yr un fath ag yr oedd yn 2006-07, sef nifer y rhai sydd yn cyflawni’n llwyddiannus.			Alun Ffred Jones: The percentage is higher, but the figure is exactly the same as it was in 2006-07, for those who are completing successfully.
[19] Keith Davies: Nac ydyw. Hanner 53 yw 26; 80% o 40 yw 32.			Keith Davies: It is not. Half of 53 is 26; 80% of 40 is 32.
[20] Alun Ffred Jones: Nid yw’r cynnydd yn fawr.			Alun Ffred Jones: The increase is not significant.
[21] Nick Ramsay: Please direct your questions to the Minister, not to each other.
[22] Jeff Cuthbert: It is not insignificant. I am trying to make the point that quality is what has been driving our approach towards apprenticeships. Of course, a more robust, fuller apprenticeship framework costs more money to develop. Indeed, young people staying on longer means that the spend is greater in terms of the training cost to public funds. I also accept Keith’s arithmetic that you are not correct in your analysis. However, the important thing is that the new specification that we have is doing the business, and far more young people are completing it, which is what we want, and that is better for the economy. Sam might like to make a few points on numbers.
[23] Ms Huckle: There are three determining factors for what we are seeing on apprenticeship numbers. We have seen a big increase in the types of delivery and qualifications on the frameworks. We have a new set of frameworks in place, as a result of our specification in Wales. There are certain frameworks to meet industry requirements, which are increasing in value. Our construction framework at foundation level 2 has increased by 20%. That is good for individuals because it ensures that they are trained to industry standards in line with employers’ requirements, but it is more expensive for providers to deliver.
[24] Generally, we are seeing that people are staying on for longer in our programmes and that they are enabled to get the attainment rates we are expecting. However, they are on the programme for a longer period of time and they are receiving more training as a result. These, primarily, are the factors that are reflecting the differences between the decline and the budget.
[25] Alun Ffred Jones: O ran y ffigurau sy’n cael eu dyfynnu am y rhai sydd ar gyrsiau prentisiaeth, a ydych chi’n cynnwys y rhai sydd ar Pathways to Apprenticeships, rhaglen Young Recruits a’r traineeships ac yn y blaen?			Alun Ffred Jones: On the figures that are quoted for those on apprenticeship courses, do you include those on Pathways to Apprenticeships, the Young Recruits programme and traineeships and so on?
[26] Ms Huckle: No. Those figures are not contained within the mainstream apprenticeship programmes. We commissioned 2,000 Pathways to Apprenticeships learners. We have commissioned 6,000 in the past few years. I do not have the traineeship figures with me, but they are not apprenticeships; they are a pathway route, a traineeship, which are at a lower level, and they are not included in these figures. I can provide the figures for the committee if Members would like those.
[27] Jeff Cuthbert: The traineeships for young people and Steps to Employment for older workers over 25 are for those who are not job-ready and are not at this point able to go into an apprenticeship because they may not know what it is they want to pursue. However, the main figures relate to the numbers following foundation apprenticeships and full apprenticeships.
[28] Keith Davies: Fel y bu i chi glywed yn gynharach, rydym wedi bod yn edrych ar fideo lle mae pobl ifanc yn cael eu holi am y wybodaeth sydd ganddynt am brentisiaethau ac yn y blaen. Rydych chi, Jeff, yn gwneud adolygiad o gymwysterau. Mae un o’r problemau yng nghyfnod allweddol 4, oherwydd dyna lle mae nifer o benderfyniadau’n cael eu gwneud. Mae’r amser sydd ei angen i gynnal cyrsiau galwedigaethol mewn ysgolion yn rhy hir. Mae plant wedyn yn penderfynu eu bod eisiau cadw eu hopsiynau ar agor, ac yn lle dewis cyrsiau galwedigaethol rhwng 14 ac 19, maent yn parhau i ddewis y pynciau academaidd. Pe baem yn gallu torri lawr ar yr amser sydd ei angen i gyflwyno’r cyrsiau galwedigaethol, efallai y byddem yn cael mwy o bobl ifainc yn eu dilyn. Yr hyn oedd yn amlwg yn y fideo rydym newydd ei weld oedd bod y bobl ifanc, pan oeddent yn y coleg, yn gallu gweld bod amrywiaeth o gyrsiau ar gael. Felly, byddwn yn gofyn i chi edrych ar hynny yn yr adolygiad.			Keith Davies: As you heard earlier, we have been watching a video where young people are questioned about their knowledge of apprenticeships and the like. You, Jeff, are conducting a review of qualifications. One of the problems is at key stage 4, because that is when many decisions are made. The time required to offer vocational courses in schools is too long. Children then decide that they want to keep their options open, and instead of choosing vocational courses between 14 and 19, they continue to choose academic subjects. If we could cut down on the time that is needed to introduce vocational courses, perhaps we would have more young people taking them up. What was apparent in the video that we just saw was that, when the young people were in their colleges, they could see that there was a variety of courses available. So, I would ask you to look at that when you are doing your review.
9.45 a.m.
	[29] Jeff Cuthbert: Thank you for that. You made some very good points. I look forward to seeing this video. It is important that I do and that I see the points that are being made. In terms of the review of qualifications, the review itself will not look at apprenticeships as such. It will look at Pathways to Apprenticeships and, inevitably, it will look at issues such as vocational courses that have an impact upon the future understanding and value of apprenticeships. That is quite right. I do not have a formal responsibility for the 14-19 learning pathways, but clearly I work closely with the Minister for Education and Skills, and I will certainly bear those points in mind. What the review will look at is the impact on the understanding of vocational courses and how they are relevant to a future employment market, or further education, and clearly that will include their relevance to apprenticeships.
	[30] David Rees: I would like to bring my question in here, if I may, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Earlier, in answer to a question on the apprenticeship frameworks, you referred to their quality and strength. I will ask a simple question. The draft specification for apprenticeship standards in Wales was published in 2010, and it was to be finalised and ready for operation by April 2011. Yet, looking at the website on 23 May, it is still the draft version that is there. Is this now the final version? Should the people developing frameworks be comfortable that it is the final version?
	[31] Jeff Cuthbert: They can be absolutely comfortable that what is technically the draft version is a solid framework and a solid document that can be worked with without difficulty. However, I accept the point that we cannot keep something in draft form. I anticipate that very soon I will be able to confirm, although it will not be on a statutory basis at this time—possibly with some minor tweaking, but not much more than that—that this is the final document. Then, we can look at putting it on a statutory basis, if that is indeed deemed to be necessary, as soon as possible thereafter. I hope to be able to confirm shortly that this is more or less the final framework.
	[32] David Rees: So, it is not quite the final version, but should be pretty close to it.
	[33] Jeff Cuthbert: It is pretty close, yes.
	[34] David Rees: Your paper identifies that there are approximately 180 frameworks as a result of the specification of apprentice standards for Wales. You have talked about a review of qualifications and 180 is a lot; is that too complex? Is that too many or do you think that we are hitting the right numbers of frameworks for the apprenticeships available?
	[35] Jeff Cuthbert: The 180 frameworks are developed and approved by the sector skills councils, so industry has deemed them to be appropriate. That is not quite the same issue as looking at the more than 11,000 qualifications that are out there more generally. After all, the framework consists of quite a lot of components, including the competency-based assessment for a national vocational qualification. So, I do not think there are too many. They cover all occupational areas and are available for those under the age of 25. There is no control, in that sense, on what they can apply to do. For older apprentices—and, at this moment, the majority are actually over 25, although we are likely to try to focus resources back on to younger people—their scope will be focused within our priority areas. It will be the same frameworks but in the priority areas.
	[36] David Rees: You talk about focusing on the younger generation, but we have heard a lot of evidence that the all-age apprenticeships were very good in Wales because many employers take people who are already in work and develop them. It is an important aspect and we cannot lose sight of that. Moving on, the funding cuts to the UK Commission for Employment and Skills are going to have an impact. How can the Welsh Government support the sector skills councils to ensure that the frameworks are relevant, up to date and meet employers’ needs? These are going to be affected by the cuts as well.
	[37] Jeff Cuthbert: It is a very fair point and it has occupied our thoughts for some time. I will ask my officials to come in after I have made a few remarks on this. First, in terms of the all-age approach to apprenticeships, I agree that it is a good thing. Certainly, we know that many employers have used it to upskill their existing workforce, which is why the numbers are a little bit skewed. Having said that, particularly at this time of great economic difficulty, we want to ensure that we are giving young people the best start we can. We want to ensure that the funds are directed in that way, where there is the requirement. As I mentioned earlier, we are oversubscribed: there are far more young people who want to take up places than can actually do so.
	[38] On the issue of funding cuts to sector skills councils, that has had an impact in Wales in a number of ways. One is that some of the sector skills councils are not resourced adequately. Some have a very good Welsh presence; I am thinking of the ConstructionSkills sector, and there are a number of others like that that are well established and that will continue their work for their occupational areas. However, for others, if they have any presence in Wales at all, it is now only one or two people. They are now really working from their national headquarters, which are normally somewhere in England, so the focus is tending to change. There is still an alliance of sector skills councils in Wales and we will continue to work with them, but they do not have full-time officers in their own right any more: there are people seconded from other SSCs. Nevertheless, we will maintain close relationships to ensure that the best deal can be done for Wales.
	[39] However, with regard to the apprenticeship framework, funding remains at a UK level for the development of national occupational standards, which, as you know, are the cornerstone of competency-based requirements, and NVQs in particular and therefore apprenticeships. Therefore, that money is secured and we do not think it is necessarily the case that there will be a threat to the apprenticeship framework. However, we are keeping a very careful eye on it.
	[40] Mr Evans: I wish to add a couple of things on this. It is a very good question. There has been a hiatus with regard to sector skills policy for the past 18 months, which is slowly resolving itself now. We meet the UKCES regularly. I was with the Minister when he met Charlie Mayfield, the chair, recently. We have recently appointed Scott Waddington, the chief executive of S.A. Brain and Co Ltd, as the Wales Commissioner for the UKCES. He is already attending its board meetings. It is doing some interesting things. In some respects, England is acting as a pilot scheme on some things, such as putting more emphasis on trying to get the private sector to invest even more in apprenticeships. The private sector invests a reasonable amount. It pays the wages and so on, and some companies pay for the entire apprenticeship framework now. However, we are seeking to leverage slightly more private sector income. When we speak to Welsh companies, which we do a lot, about whether they are in a position at the moment to direct the funding themselves, the answer tends to be ‘no’. So, we are still working with the sector skills councils. We are also funding the sector priorities fund, which is likely to be rolled forward. It is a specific Welsh fund for sector skills councils to access in order to build frameworks that are specific to Wales.
	[41] David Rees: Obviously, the specification covers all the frameworks and includes higher apprenticeships. That was one of the areas that several of the sector skills councils were concerned about and wanted to develop. If there are issues with funding, will there be a push towards developing those higher apprenticeship frameworks?
	[42] Jeff Cuthbert: I will bring Sam in on this. Our apprenticeship framework includes foundation, the full apprenticeship—which we now just call an apprenticeship—and certainly the higher level apprenticeships, which are very attractive to certain industries and certain high-tech industries in particular. The Sector Skills Council for Science, Engineering and Manufacturing Technologies is very keen on that development, for example. It is a relatively new approach, so it is a little untested at this point. However, we certainly think it is of great value.
	[43] Ms Huckle: In terms of SSCs and the development of frameworks, they perform two major functions for apprenticeships in Wales. They develop the national frameworks. UKCES has now established a commissioning board to ensure that the frameworks are developed in line with the needs of the various regions and the labour market. We sit on that commissioning board. We have provided the board with an outline of intelligence on the gaps in Wales, a list of the frameworks we would like to see reviewed in line with industry standards, and the frameworks where, as with advice and guidance, we have gaps. We were in a negotiation process and we were successful in negotiating the frameworks we wanted to be developed by SSCs. Those included a number of higher apprenticeship frameworks, such as financial services, which has been a key area for us. That process will happen every six months. We do that in consultation with our providers and stakeholders. Therefore, there is a very good process to ensure that, for the funding made available through universal services, we are able to influence the development of those frameworks to meet our needs. That is a very positive step forward.
	[44] UKCES now has a responsibility to performance-manage framework development. There has been some criticism that frameworks can take years to be developed. So, we are now likely to see frameworks being developed at a quicker pace. That is a positive step. The last key area that SSCs are involved with is the design of our Pathways to Apprenticeships programme because they interlock directly with apprenticeship frameworks so that we can ensure that the pathways are designed in line with industry requirements and the needs of local employers. There is also an automatic progression into our frameworks and we provide funding to the SSCs to develop those pathways. We have a couple of new pathways coming on stream, and we even have one for aeronautics coming on stream next year. So, those are the key elements of our attempt to ensure that we mitigate any risks of gaps in frameworks in Wales and to drive forward our priorities with UKCES.
	[45] Nick Ramsay: Joyce Watson has a brief supplementary question on this.
	[46] Joyce Watson: The House of Commons’ Public Accounts Committee report on adult apprenticeships said that
	[47] ‘many employers still see apprenticeships as a cost rather than an investment’.
	[48] That is in England. Would you say that that is the case in Wales?
	[49] Jeff Cuthbert: I would not. We have one very good example in Airbus. We have information from Airbus that it sees higher level apprenticeships as a key way of developing and retaining higher level skills within the company and, in fact, to a greater extent than by recruiting graduates. If someone goes through the higher level route, either on the basis of a foundation degree or having completed a full apprenticeship, they have a greater understanding of the needs of the industry and are therefore more useful in the longer term. Therefore, I would argue that, when looked at properly, people will see that it is an investment and not a cost.
	[50] David Rees: I just wish to clarify something. During the negotiation on the frameworks, did you prioritise the nine sectors that the Welsh Government is prioritising?
	[51] Ms Huckle: Yes. We had a range of priorities linked to the priority sectors and where there were clear gaps in terms of framework development, as well as where we had received feedback from our National Training Federation for Wales network. We did a broad consultation with it on what employers were saying about areas where they wanted to develop apprenticeships where frameworks currently either needed to be revised or did not exist.
	[52] Jeff Cuthbert: On this point, we mentioned the appointment of Scott Waddington as our representative on the United Kingdom commission. Of course, he also sits on the Wales employment and skills board, which I chair. That is a reconfigured body with much greater employer representation. One of the key areas for it to consider is vocational training relevant to employers’ needs, and that most certainly includes apprenticeships at all levels. It is an issue of partnership. We can provide, as we do, the funding for the training, but in many ways the biggest driver for apprenticeships must be employers because it is to their advantage to do so.
	[53] Eluned Parrott: Deputy Minister, I would like to drill down into the issue of how apprenticeships are marketed and promoted. Obviously, there are two audiences, namely the potential apprentices themselves and the potential employers of apprentices. I will treat them separately. With regard to employers, if there are a huge number of applications per place, as we have heard in evidence, we will need to stimulate supply and work with employers to create more apprenticeships. What measures do you take to market apprenticeships to employers in Wales?
	10.00 a.m.
	[54] Jeff Cuthbert: We work through the normal bodies, such as the Confederation of British Industry and the Federation of Small Businesses, and we have links with many organisations—and I have mentioned the Wales Employment and Skills Board. We work closely with National Training Federation Wales, with which we have a contract for the promotion of apprenticeships and the take-up and placement of apprentices. The federation, in turn, has direct contact with more than 35,000 employers, so it is very much a partnership approach. Careers Wales and Jobcentre Plus also have roles to play. We are constantly looking at ways of improving the understanding of apprenticeships, and that is why I referred earlier to the WorldSkills championships, to National Apprenticeship Week and the other events that we are organising to increase awareness. As I mentioned in response to Dave Rees’s point, most employers are aware of the value of apprenticeships but sometimes they need a little encouragement to take it forward. It is crucial. We can create the resources to provide for the training, but the actual apprenticeship places are down to employers. It is very important that we work to the best of our ability with employers. We cannot force them to take on apprentices, but we want to create the very best environment for that to become a reality.
	[55] Eluned Parrott: You mentioned National Training Federation Wales. It has told us that the Welsh Government should do more to promote apprenticeships, and you have agreed that more could be done. It concerns me that, by leading on a partnership approach, you are missing out potential employers that are not members of those networks and are not in the core areas identified in the economic strategy. What centralised systems could you set up to ensure that information is provided for employers that is simple for them to understand, easy for them to access, direct and to the point, and will lead them through the process?
	[56] Jeff Cuthbert: That is an interesting point. I hear what you have just said about the comments of the national training federation. I have had many meetings with its representatives and they have not raised that point with me, so I will pursue that with them to see what ideas they have about where we can improve matters. I would be the first to agree that there is always room for improvement. I accept that. As we go along, we will identify new ways of doing it, and my door is open to anyone who has ideas about apprenticeships. I hope that it comes across that I passionately believe in the value of apprenticeships, and I want to see quality apprenticeships being promoted and developed. So, we will certainly look at that. However, to be practical, we are working with the national training federation, which, as I say, has direct contact with more than 35,000 employers, with the CBI and the FSB, which are all positive on this front, and we are doing quite a bit. However, if others have ideas about how publicity and marketing may be improved, I would be happy to hear them.
	[57] Eluned Parrott: I want to move on to the promotion of apprenticeships to young people and potential apprenticeships. If you want to ensure parity of esteem between apprenticeships and higher education routes, we need to ensure that there is parity in the marketing and promotion of those routes to young people in their schools. We have heard a lot of evidence to suggest that the promotion of apprenticeships is patchy and dependent on individuals pushing them in their areas. We have heard evidence that the messages are confused, that young people do not really understand what is available to them and that, put simply, the messages that we want to push forward are not getting through. What particular plans do you have over the next year to change the way in which you are marketing and promoting apprenticeships to young people?
	[58] Jeff Cuthbert: I have outlined what we are doing at the moment. We will certainly continue to ensure that we use the media to the best effect to highlight the value of apprenticeships. I often make the point, when I go to the presentation of apprenticeships, that, every August or early September, we quite rightly celebrate the achievements of school pupils in their GCSEs and A-levels. That is still the main focus of the media in respect of educational achievement. So, it is not surprising that there is still confusion in schools about the value of apprenticeships and vocational routes. There is still the view that A-levels are right for everyone, incredible though that may seem in this day and age. We do not want, in any way, to devalue the issuing of GCSEs and A-levels, but we want to see greater parity—you are quite right—so we will continue to urge the media, as one course of action, to improve the coverage of vocational qualifications. I must say that there is good evidence that that is happening now.
	[59] I am sorry, as I do not want to be repetitive, but we also want—
	[60] Nick Ramsay: You just said that there is good evidence. What evidence is there?
	[61] Jeff Cuthbert: Of what?
	[62] Nick Ramsay: The media giving—
	[63] Jeff Cuthbert: Oh, we can send you many of the press cuttings, if you want. For example, during National Apprenticeship Week, there was significant coverage in the Welsh media as well as the UK media. There was television and radio coverage, and I took part in a number of interviews, for example. I have forgotten what I was going to say next.
	[64] Eluned Parrott: I have a little, as well. Let us move on, then. One problem that we potentially have with how the message is communicated is that the message is a complex one. We have many levels of apprenticeships, but we heard in evidence from Careers Wales that higher apprenticeships are not designated as a priority for the Welsh Government. Do you think that it would help to build parity of esteem if higher apprenticeships were more thoroughly promoted to the more academically able young people so that they could see them as a route that was just as valuable and as strenuous, if you like, as higher education?
	[65] Jeff Cuthbert: I accept your premise. The perception, particularly among parents, who are the greatest influence on their children when they are of school age, that vocational qualifications are somehow second-class is still far too prevalent. Largely, there is still that perception. I know this from talking to parents in my constituency. However, it is wrong. Properly organised vocational qualifications, and certainly apprenticeships, are as demanding, if not more so, than many academic qualifications and the value that is obtained from them is great. I keep referring to the point, but, because they are designed by sector skills councils with the needs of industry in mind, we know that their value to employers and, therefore, to potential employees is great. I hope that I am giving out a consistent message that we want to keep promoting this theme. We are not saying that it is right for everyone—not for a second. There must be choice, and that will be part of the qualifications review and any future work that comes out of that. However, we have to do more. There are increases. I alluded to the fact that apprenticeships are oversubscribed with more applications than places, which shows that the message is getting through. Sam will say more.
	[66] Nick Ramsay: Be brief, if you can, as I want to bring in Julie James.
	[67] Ms Huckle: Okay. The comment from Careers Wales about higher apprenticeships not being a priority is not something that we recognise. We have apprenticeships at levels 2, 3, 4, 5 and above now, and we do not place any priority on any particular level. What we have done is prioritise young people and sectors. So, I am not quite sure in what context that comment was made.
	[68] Our approach has been to work on 14 to 19 options to try to promote apprenticeships at the age of 16-plus. We have also undertaken a direct marketing campaign, which has been successful, reaching at least 2.8 million viewers and 8.6 million listeners. We have a lot of evidence, which we will give you, of how successful that direct marketing campaign was in reaching parents, carers, individuals and employers directly.
	[69] We have also been working with referral agencies such as Jobcentre Plus on a number of these issues, trying to raise awareness of apprenticeship options locally. We put the apprenticeship matching service in to match supply and demand for apprenticeships, and we are trying to promote that to the individuals who like to use social media and new technology, so that they can apply for apprenticeship vacancies. We are also trying to encourage employers that are currently not in the system to post new apprenticeship vacancies.
	[70] Eluned Parrott: I have a final question. On day one of your vocational training in marketing, you are taught something called the AIDA principle. That is, when you are marketing and promoting something, you want to get people’s attention, interest, then desire and, finally, action. The thing that concerns me is that we are not really ready for the action bit. The draw-down of information is not systemised. It is not clear enough for people, and we have heard evidence to that effect. What can you do to streamline it so that potential apprentices and the potential employers of apprentices are able to access information at a single point of entry—that is, a single telephone number, a single website, a single source?
	[71] Ms Huckle: Careers Wales has traditionally been the key focus or the key point providing that service.
	[72] Eluned Parrott: But it is not the only one.
	[73] Ms Huckle: It is not the only point. We have a Welsh Government website that has information on it, and we also have the business skills hotline. We try to concentrate on Careers Wales and the business skills hotline as the key points to support the marketing campaigns, to monitor how successful they have been. We review our marketing strategy for apprenticeships annually, and if you have received evidence that it is better to have one point of contact, that is certainly an area that we can action.
	[74] Jeff Cuthbert: Chair, I will be asking Careers Wales what it meant by the comment that higher level apprenticeships are not a priority for the Welsh Government because, as Sam said, we do not recognise that as being in any way a reflection of our views.
	[75] One point that I would make on this, however, is that we are talking about a good message here. I certainly agree that we need to get out more information, because the scheme is successful. The fact that more young people want to get on to apprenticeships than we can provide for them at this moment shows that it is a supported programme. So, we are starting from a good basis, but we can always do more, and we will look for good ideas.
	[76] Julie James: Developing that theme, Deputy Minister, we have heard some evidence about the age at which you should start the process of persuading people that a vocational route or an apprenticeship is a good idea. Do you do anything below secondary school level to educate children and parents about these pathways? We have had particular examples of people who did not understand which combination of GCSEs might be needed for a particular apprenticeship route, even just standard academic GCSEs. They did not understand that there was a particular option they could take.
	[77] Jeff Cuthbert: Certainly with regard to children of primary school age—that is, under 11—we would not want to discuss these structures or frameworks, or to be too precise about occupations. However, through the personal and social education route, for example, we would want to see a greater understanding of the world of work and what is involved, including participation in projects that involve the practical key skills of communication and problem solving, so that they become more prepared for making vocational choices, if that is their wish, at a later age.
	[78] On the second point of your question, part of the qualifications review is to look at the issue of how GCSEs—and A-levels—are aligned to future career prospects. We need to do far more there, which is why the views of employers on our qualifications offer are so critical. Without a good input from them, the review might not be as successful as it could be. Certainly, we understand that issue. We need to ensure that the GCSEs that are followed at that age are relevant. It is not a question of dragooning young people into taking a particular route—we will never do that—but we will want to ensure that they have good information about the choices they can make.
	10.15 a.m.
	[79] Julie James: I would like to follow up that point. Your reference to ‘good information’ is a very interesting point, because in the video that we have watched, and elsewhere, there has been some fairly vehement evidence from young people that the Careers Wales website is not all that they would like it to be. As you know, young people are very IT and computer literate these days, and we had a young lady who said that the website was not to her liking, I think that it is fair to say. I cannot remember which of you—although I think that it may have been Sam Huckle—mentioned something about Facebook, Twitter, and so on; once again, we have had evidence that there is insufficient use of social media, that the websites are designed for older people and they expect you, for example, to make telephone calls, which young people do not like—they like chat rooms and so on. So, could you tell us anything about young-person-facing IT systems?
	[80] Jeff Cuthbert: Yes, certainly. I will ask Sam to expand on her earlier comments about Twitter and Facebook, but we certainly use them. In terms of Careers Wales, it is still the primary force—
	[81] Nick Ramsay: How do you use them?
	[82] Jeff Cuthbert: How do we use Twitter and Facebook? That is what I will ask Sam to expand upon more fully.
	[83] Nick Ramsay: That was the question, so perhaps Sam can respond.
	[84] Ms Huckle: We are currently piloting some approaches with Twitter and Facebook for the Jobs Growth Wales programme in the hope of expanding that to the apprenticeship programme. We have been trying to evaluate its effectiveness in line with some of the other more traditional communication channels that we have used historically. One-to-one communication has proven to be better, particularly with careers advice and guidance because there is an element of hands-on diagnostics that is expected. Some of the online activities, the diagnostic tools, that we have used previously did not quite provide the level of advice and guidance that we had anticipated.
	[85] The other key thing that we have been looking at is an apprenticeship pack, which we will distribute to schools for careers advisers to use. That will be supported by some of the new social communication tools. The aim is—as we have done with some of our campaigns—to feed them through to Careers Wales and the business skills hotline, so that we can monitor how effective those hits have been. We are still piloting some of these approaches—for Jobs Growth Wales at present and we will then move on to the apprenticeship programme.
	[86] Jeff Cuthbert: If I may, Chair, I would like to ask Owen to expand on one or two of those points, but I would like to come back in on the issue of the service of Careers Wales, which Julie James mentioned.
	[87] Mr Evans: The first thing to mention is that, although it does not have a bad site, even Careers Wales realises that there is a need to improve it. It is currently testing a new beta site, which includes things like some of the outputs from the labour market intelligence unit, but it is also trying to make it a bit more young-people friendly, if you like. It is also probably worth mentioning initiatives such as the Real Conversation, which the Deputy Minister mentioned, where we go out to meet employers and young people; please have a look, it has its own Facebook page and Twitter accounts. So, we are increasingly using social media to try to get through to young people. We are probably not there yet, but we are doing our best to set up a platform that people can use.
	[88] Jeff Cuthbert: If I may say, Chair, in terms of the first point about Careers Wales, it clearly has a crucial role to play in terms of providing advice to young people about future careers. By the end of June, I should be able to issue a formal statement on the structure of Careers Wales, which will give it some stability for the future. Then, the issue of the remit of Careers Wales kicks in, and it is absolutely crucial that we look at issues like this to ensure that the way in which Careers Wales does its work provides the very best service for young people. It is still an all-age service, but that is certainly important in relation to young people. So, these aspects will be important.
	[89] Julie James: I have one last question, which arises from my learning curve during this inquiry and relates to the issue of what we call the various levels of apprenticeship and how we make them attractive. I am quite confused and I have had to write down on a piece of paper the differences between a foundation apprenticeship and a higher apprenticeship, and so on. It is quite clear from the evidence that we have received that that is quite a common problem for young people, and some employers, in terms of who they are looking for and at whom they are being marketed. For example, we had young people who were clearly trying to get an apprenticeship as a route to avoid taking GCSEs. We had other young people who were trying to get an apprenticeship as a route to avoid going to university. Clearly, those are two very different cohorts of young people. I think that there is a real issue about not calling them levels 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, because that would only be perfectly clear if you had them written down, for example. I think that there is a need to give the apprenticeships some better branding.
	[90] Nick Ramsay: You can just agree or not agree.
	[91] Julie James: I would much rather he explained it, Chair.
	[92] Jeff Cuthbert: The foundation modern apprenticeship basically includes an element that takes you up to a level 2 NVQ. We would always encourage progression to the full apprenticeship, which we used to call the modern apprenticeship, which takes you up to NVQ level 3. For people of the older generation, that is when you become a journeyman: you have completed the framework, plus the other things that are part of that, such as essential skills at the relevant levels and, perhaps, the key skills as well. As Sam alluded to earlier, the higher levels are beyond that. To gain entry, you might have a foundation degree, you might even have a degree but want to develop your knowledge and understanding of that particular industry, or you might have an apprenticeship, and you go on to take a higher level apprenticeship that may take you to NVQ level 5. It might be helpful if we sent you a brief on that point, if this is an issue of clarification. I accept the point that young people may find that a bit bewildering. In terms of their doing something so that they do not have to do something else, I hope that we move to a position where young people want to do it in order to gain a good qualification, as opposed to not going down another route, so that it is regarded as a positive option as opposed to a negative option.
	[93] Julie James: To be honest, I think that that is part of the problem: the naming of it is causing that choice to be made. If you could come up with a more attractive brand at that level, you would be encouraging people to choose it rather than them doing it instead of doing something else.
	[94] Jeff Cuthbert: We certainly take that point on board.
	[95] Nick Ramsay: We have seven minutes left and still a number of questions to be asked. I will bring Ken Skates in on that point.
	[96] Kenneth Skates: I think that this is absolutely crucial. I think that Julie James was suggesting that, until we have an apprenticeship premium brand, right at the top, they will never be able to compete, in terms of value or perception, with a place at Oxbridge or a redbrick university. Essentially, that is what is required. We need schools to identify a premium brand of apprenticeships as being equal to a place at one of the established redbrick universities. It is then that we will see greater take-up and interest in them. Is the new labour market intelligence unit providing good-quality intelligence that can be used by employers, particularly small businesses and microbusinesses, for workforce development planning?
	[97] Jeff Cuthbert: On the issue of the quality of apprenticeships, I take your point absolutely; we still have work to do to improve perception and understanding. However, I am absolutely adamant that apprenticeships in Wales will be a gold standard of vocational qualifications. It means that they will be of quality. We will not tolerate any old training scheme simply being called an apprenticeship scheme, which is happening in other parts of the UK and has happened in Wales in the past. We have heard about six-week apprenticeships, which, quite frankly, are nonsense. Apprenticeships do not have to be time constrained, within reason, but we would expect the completion of a full apprenticeship to take something in the order of two to two and a half years with a structured programme. Something that is called an apprenticeship qualification or programme that is not one does no good to the system at all and, as far as I am concerned, that will not happen again in Wales.
	[98] I will ask Owen to comment on the issue of labour market intelligence. The unit is established and its philosophy is to provide the very best labour market intelligence to inform issues such as apprenticeship design.
	[99] Mr Evans: The first thing to state is that the output of the labour market intelligence unit will sit on the Careers Wales website, just like the apprenticeship matching service. We are trying to bring everything together in one place. The primary driver for the LMI unit will be to create information at as local a level as possible because, statistically, it becomes more difficult to work out and to shape the choices of young people. I will come on to the employer element shortly. The primary reason is that, looking at the output of further education in Wales for things like STEM subjects, you can see that we are not producing enough people with qualifications in those subjects to go into areas such as manufacturing, even in the current climate. Therefore, rather than having a strict supply side effect, we are trying to shape things in a better way to ensure that young people have a more realistic concept of where employment is likely to lie. We will be doing that immediately with the beta site that Careers Wales is testing now, but we hope to get to a point over the next six months where we will have a very simple star system that will show young people how likely employment is with particular career trajectories. That will provide them with some real information that should help. From speaking to young people at the moment, particularly with regard to the recession, we know that that is the sort of information they are crying out for.
	[100] On the employer side, the publication of labour market intelligence at a Wales level—and I wish to say that this will be the first year we have had it since 2006; it is quite a big shift, from a Government point of view, that we are reinvesting in creating labour market intelligence in Wales—is giving us the kick to ensure that our provision for the public purse actually meets the needs of employers. Therefore, I hope that, whether you are a small or large firm, this will be something that will flag up to you any issues in your industry with regard to skills. It is something that you are probably recognising already, but it is also something for us to take away and try to act on with our partners in further and higher education and schools.
	[101] Nick Ramsay: We have only a few minutes left. Joyce wants to come in at this point.
	[102] Joyce Watson: Yes, my question follows up on that point. I want to talk about small and medium-sized employers because you have already started talking about the way in which you are going to let them know about things. I represent Mid and West Wales, which is an area dominated by small and medium-sized businesses and microbusinesses. How are you going to take out the complexity that they feel exists within the system and prevents them from taking on more apprentices? Have you looked at expanding the shared apprenticeship model in any way?
	[103] Jeff Cuthbert: Thank you; I am glad that you have mentioned the issue of the shared apprenticeship model because it is certainly designed with smaller employers very much in mind. We certainly regard that as a successful programme. You then asked me about whether we are expanding it. Rather than me looking frantically through my notes, perhaps you could respond to that, Sam. Of course, we also have the Young Recruits programme, which provides a wage subsidy of £50 a week for qualifying employers, which will tend to be smaller employers. On the issue of complexity, I think that we have probably detailed what we are trying to do to clarify things. Sam, could you deal with expansion?
	[104] Ms Huckle: In terms of our interventions to engage with microbusinesses and small and medium-sized businesses, we have established an apprenticeship unit in the Welsh Government. Its role is to look at shared apprenticeship models and develop opportunities to stimulate interest from the employers’ markets. We are working with anchor companies on one side and we are also working with small to medium-sized businesses. We have looked at targeting the Young Recruits programme directly at those. We have also looked at working with some of the intermediary agencies to ensure that some of the messages about the support on that programme are well known. We have been developing the shared apprenticeship clusters approach on a sector basis with particular employers within those areas. We have had two so far and they have been in construction and engineering. We are looking at a third in north Wales now—Cwmni Prentis Menai, linked with Coleg Menai, in readiness for the Wylfa B site. We are working with organisations of varying sizes on training for stock, in effect, ready for when some of those labour markets kick up in that area.
	10.30 a.m.
	[105] We have also been looking at the issues that small businesses face. For example, they often do not have human resources departments, so they find it difficult to make the outlay for recruitment costs to begin with. They find it very difficult to engage with the various agencies. They are also quite risk-averse in terms of the operational costs of apprenticeships. We have been looking at some of these issues as possible elements within the YRP and at whether that programme could be structured slightly differently to respond to those needs and whether we can do more specifically with agencies to take the recruitment burden away from them. We have also been looking at our apprenticeship matching service to see whether we can do more with small businesses around that, because it is a recruitment tool—it sifts through CVs and it sends out letters. So, there is more that we can do with that area. That has been our general approach.
	[106] Nick Ramsay: Deputy Minister, due to the content of the questions we are running a little over time. Do you have an extra eight minutes or do you need to leave?
	[107] Jeff Cuthbert: I am due to meet the First Minister on a separate matter, but perhaps we can split the difference and stay for another four or five minutes.
	[108] Nick Ramsay: There are just two more questions, so, hopefully, we can get through those very quickly. I am sorry, I did not mean to cut you off there, Sam Huckle, but I needed to clarify that the Deputy Minister could stay.
	[109] Alun Ffred Jones: A sôn am natur prentisiaethau, a yw’r Llywodraeth wedi llwyddo i daro cydbwysedd rhwng blaenoriaethu prentisiaeth ar gyfer pobl ifanc 16 i 24 oed a phrentisiaethau ar gyfer pobl hŷn?		Alun Ffred Jones: Talking about the nature of apprenticeships, has the Government managed to strike a balance between prioritising apprenticeships for young people aged 16 to 24 and apprenticeships for older people?
	[110] Jeff Cuthbert: Well, in response to an earlier question, I pointed out that, at the moment, there are more people completing apprenticeships aged over 25 than under 25. That is because there has been a particular interest and take-up by employers who want to upskill their existing staff. It is not too surprising that they want to do that, given the economic times that we are in, where it is perhaps a little more difficult for employers to recruit new people, whether for apprenticeships or anything else. Nevertheless, we want to change that balance a bit more so that there is a greater focus on young people, and we are working towards that.
	[111] As I mentioned, in terms of the frameworks that are available for younger people, there are 180 apprenticeship frameworks, cutting across all occupational areas, including the priority sectors. Those who are 25 plus are focused on the priority sectors; that is the investment. That is a matter that is kept under review, because frameworks have to be reviewed as the nature of the economy changes; they have to be responsive to what is required by employers, which makes sense—it is a bit of a burden, but it makes sense that that is done.
	[112] Alun Ffred Jones: Mae hynny’n golygu felly—gobeithio bod fy arithmetic yn iawn y tro yma—bod llai na 20,000 o bobl 18 i 24 oed yn dilyn cyrsiau prentisiaeth. A oes unrhyw berthynas rhwng y ffigur hwnnw a’r ffaith bod y ffigurau ar gyfer pobl ifanc sydd yn NEET wedi cynyddu’n sylweddol yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf? Hynny yw, a oes perthynas rhwng y nifer llai o bobl ifanc sydd mewn prentisiaethau â’r ffaith bod y ffigurau NEET wedi cynyddu yn weddol sylweddol yn y dwy neu dair blynedd diwethaf?		Alun Ffred Jones: Therefore, that means—I hope that my arithmetic is correct this time—that there are fewer than 20,000 people aged 18 to 24 following apprenticeship courses. Is there any correlation between that figure and the fact that the figure for young people who are NEET has increased significantly in recent years? That is, is there a correlation between the smaller number of young people in apprenticeships and the fact that that the NEET figures have increased fairly substantially in the past two or three years?
	[113] Jeff Cuthbert: I explained earlier that the absolute numbers have reduced because the frameworks have been expanded. We do not have more money to spend on it, although there has been a slight increase in the overall expenditure. We have also introduced the Young Recruits programme and Pathways to Apprenticeships, which has attracted part of the overall budget. That is why the numbers have come down, but, as I said, and I do not wish to repeat myself, Chair, the completion rate has increased.
	[114] In terms of the correlation with NEETs, the biggest issue that causes NEETs to increase is the state of the economy and the fact that there are fewer jobs out there.
	[115] David Rees: On that point and the question of off-the-job training providers, I notice that there is reference to the fact that a lot of further education colleges deliver off-the-job training, and they follow an academic year. How responsive are they to employers’ needs? Those offering apprenticeships will not necessarily say, ‘We’ll start in September’, for example; apprenticeships will start when employers need to take people on.
	[116] Nick Ramsay: The briefer your answers, the quicker you can get away.
	[117] Jeff Cuthbert: Pathways to Apprenticeships is a 12-month college based course, which can include a number of weeks on placement. It is designed by the sector skills councils and employers. In terms of the academic year, I take your point. Is there work going on now, Owen, on seeing whether that can be changed?
	[118] Mr Evans: We are always concerned, in any provision that we make, that it is as employer-led as it can be. On the whole, FE is quite good at linking in to employer demand. The SSCs will not sign it off unless there is a clear demonstration that it is following what employers need. The one question mark— and this is something that we are reviewing at the moment with the Pathways to Apprenticeships programme—is over progression. This is a theme that you will see throughout what we are doing on skills and education. Once people have been through the Pathways to Apprenticeships programme, what next? I think that, in monitoring that more closely, we will find out whether the programme is building up towards employment at the end or apprenticeships to employment.
	[119] Nick Ramsay: Thank you, Minister, for that full session and for agreeing to stay a bit longer. We will not detain you any longer. Thanks also to Sam Huckle and Owen Evans for coming in today and providing good supplementary evidence for our apprenticeships inquiry.
	[120] Jeff Cuthbert: Thank you.
	10.36 a.m.
	Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting
	[121] Nick Ramsay: We now need to move into private session.
	[122] Byron Davies: I move that
	the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order No. 17.42(vi).
	[123] Nick Ramsay: I see that the committee is in agreement.
	Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion agreed.
	Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10.36 a.m. The public part of the meeting ended at 10.36 a.m.